Thomas Meyer, the car you drove up in has a bumper sticker that says “Bureau of Irony”. What are you trying to tell us with that?
I’m basically saying that you shouldn’t take everything I do too seriously. But this bumper sticker has nothing to do with the deep geological repository.
Is it more a statement on the life you lead?
I think it expresses my personality. But it’s funny how people react to this line. Many people ask me whether this bureau actually exists. And I tell them: no, but it should. Then you could fine people for making bad jokes.
Is that something you would do?
Yes, and I would go after them with flashing emergency lights!
Since April, you have been accompanying the repository project as a cultural guest courtesy of the regional conference. How did this come about?
I have known Christopher Müller, the Co-President of the regional conference, for 15 years and used to work for his company on a regular basis. He thought it would be cool if I could accompany the repository project in an artistic function. I was thrilled because it has a lot to offer – not least grappling with the great contradictions.
You once wrote: “I’m a child of Chernobyl, it really affected me.” How do you reconcile this with your commitment in Stadel?
Here we already have the first contradiction. What attracted me to this project was creativity and joy. I can still feel that despite having been shaped by Chernobyl. I was twelve years old at the time and remember that the ramifications of the accident were unclear for days. Would we now have to live underground? The only thing we knew for sure was that it was a very big, very problematic issue.
A vague threat.
The exact effects were vague, but the threat was very real. That made me think more critically, and I came to the conclusion that nuclear power was dangerous. I later learned that Chernobyl was more or less deliberately caused and that the Russian reactors were built very cheaply; they didn’t even provide any containment. The Beznau nuclear power plant is also very old, but it has been modernised time and again. Still, I believe that operating a nuclear power plant will always come with a residual risk. And you will have waste that is radioactive and dangerous for an extremely long time. By opening just one container, you could generate half a Chernobyl. As things stand today, radioactive waste is a huge problem. Nonetheless, or perhaps precisely for this reason, I find it extremely interesting to accompany the repository project.
Can you explain this in more detail?
Nuclear power is a mistake, and military use of it even more so. The nuclear powers constantly have their fingers hovering over the red button, and the slightest misunderstanding could lead to disaster. I think we should have never allowed nuclear fission to happen. At the same time, I have been to a nuclear power plant and was deeply impressed by this technological marvel. To me, these two things can exist in parallel – and I believe this also holds true for many others.
You have visited the Beznau nuclear power plant and the interim storage facility in Würenlingen. What did you learn?
Among other things, that a nuclear power plant is primarily a giant immersion heater with a steam engine. I was almost a little disappointed because I was expecting a more complex mode of operation, more like a spaceship. But it was fascinating. You stand in this huge hall, the door opens and there are insulators outside, with a power line leading away from them. This is where electric power is produced. Then it disappears into the substation and later travels through high-voltage power lines that you can see in the distance.
Are you more of a listener than a reader?
This interview was conducted as part of the third issue of the Magazine of the Century “500m+” from Nagra. Hannes Hug interviewed the protagonists at Nagra’s meeting point in Stadel – the community where the surface facility for the deep geological repository is to be constructed.
Ten exciting discussions provide new perspectives on the deep geological repository. You can listen to the Podcast of the Century (Jahrhundertpodcast, in German) on the website of The Magazine of the Century or wherever podcasts are available.
Your task is to accompany the repository project artistically. Were there any precise guidelines?
There were no guidelines at all – I was very pleased to be trusted like this. I decided on a blog that I illustrate with real and AI-generated photos. For me, it is the best and easiest way to keep delivering content. When I have an idea, I write it down and create a picture to go with it. Then I post it online and make it accessible to everyone.
You used AI to create characters like Benny Brennstab, a fuel rod designed to look very much like a cartoon character…
… I always used the prompt “cute cartoon character”.
This could be described as trivialising and infantilising.
I have been accused of that, yes. I counter these accusations with the argument that the subject matter should also be accessible to children. I wanted to hit a frequency that would also reach children, as the topic also affects them and their children. The second intention was to prompt a discussion. I was expecting accusations, but I also wanted them to come.
Who criticised you?
Mainly people who are not convinced by the current repository concept. They also do not trust Nagra since they have changed their mind several times in recent decades. Another argument is: why does the waste have to go underground right now? Why can’t we wait until we have found a more convincing solution? From this perspective, I can see how some people might dislike cute little Benny Brennstab.
Interview with Matthias Braun from the Magazine of the Century
“We geologists think in time-scales of millions of years”
What Nagra does almost has the ring of science fiction, says its CEO, Matthias Braun, in the third issue of the Magazine of the Century “500m+”. But this “science fiction” is based on hard facts – and on swarm intelligence.
Have you responded to this criticism?
Someone said that I should also address the danger, for example, by creating Susi Strahlung, a character designed to represent radiation. I agreed with the person and went back to the AI image generator. The association “Nördlich Lägern ohne Tiefenlager” (No Repository for Nördlich Lägern) also invited me to a discussion. With a nod to their acronym, LOTI, they came up with Lotti Lotterfass, another character designed to represent the association’s fundamental doubts about the concept. Reto Restrisiko, designed to represent the residual risk, does so, too.
So you basically went around collecting ideas, one might say.
It was important to me to collect ideas from everyone. In the nuclear power plants, in the interim storage facility, with repository supporters and opponents.
Did you touch on their worries and fears or take a strictly scientific stance?
Ultimately, I was doing my rounds as a private individual. Certain arguments convinced me, others did not. For example, I find the high safety standards convincing. But I also find the question justified as to whether we might want to wait until we know more. In any event, Nagra keeps emphasising that the repository will not be definitively closed for another hundred years. It will also be constructed in a manner that will allow the retrieval of containers at any time. It will be comparatively easy at first but become more complex later.
Were you surprised by these brief exchanges?
Not necessarily. I know how a person functions politically: through feelings, not primarily with facts. You can see that in every election. Many people have no idea what is really at issue – I often don’t, either. Many people don’t even give much thought to the subject. They think it’s great that the waste will be buried, as long as it’s not buried in their backyard.
“I know how a person functions politically: through feelings, not primarily with facts. You can see that in every election.”
Thomas Meyer, about his impressions as a cultural guest of the regional conference
Would you prefer people to voice their contradictory opinions transparently?
Ueli Maurer once said that he was only sixty per cent convinced by certain proposals. Nevertheless, he had to act as if he was one hundred per cent behind them. A very honest statement, in my opinion. Many people have great difficulty dealing with contradictory situations. It exhausts them because they are forced to seek information.
A deep geological repository in Stadel, this picturesque village nestled in a beautiful landscape – isn’t that also a contradiction?
If it doesn’t fit here, then it won’t fit anywhere. Of course it will be a contrast, but these contrasts can be found everywhere.
As a columnist, you used to describe yourself as a pen for hire. What job offers would you refuse, even if the price were right?
I could think of a few things, but the longer I think about them, the more fascinating they become to me. I like to go outside my comfort zone, that’s where things start to get interesting. But if the Swiss People’s Party were to come along now and ask me to create material for an environmentally critical campaign, I would turn them down.
The film adaptation of your book was the first Netflix film to be produced in Switzerland. How much Netflix potential do you see for the deep geological repository in Stadel?
The approach is what is crucial; in my opinion, there is no such thing as a boring topic. What can be boring is just how you deal with the topic. The topics themselves are all equally interesting. There are always some interesting aspects to explore and research.
One last question that I ask everyone I interview: If you could leave a message in the planned deep geological repository, what would you write in your note?
I hope that nobody will ever descend all the way down there and read my note. But if they do, I owe them an apology.
Thomas Meyer is a columnist and author. He gained nationwide fame with the 2018 film adaptation of his novel “The Awakening of Motti Wolkenbruch” (original title: “Wolkenbruchs wunderliche Reise in die Arme einer Schickse”). As a cultural guest of the regional conference – a project group of around 120 people who represent the interests of the region with regard to the construction of the deep geological repository – he accompanied the project for the disposal of Switzerland’s radioactive waste in the Nördlich Lägern siting region with intermittently published blog posts between April and October 2024.
Photos: Maurice Haas / Nagra
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